I think the real upsetting thing isn’t Biden’s performance, or having Biden as president for four more years. He achieved quite a bit after all. The real upsetting thing is the DNC being such cunts that they even pushed for this debate, hoping that Biden could win, only to deny and ignore Biden’s abhorrent performance immediately after. That Bernie got shafted twice by them, that is the really upsetting part.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win. None of the shitty things that Trump wants to do will hurt them, (stupid take if they cared at all about their descendants but they’re either too arrogant or too ignorant to worry about that) but actual progressive policies that helped average people WOULD hurt their way of life. Marginally. Like, the tiniest little amount. Like, your yacht can only have one master bedroom instead of four. But why give that up when you don’t have to?
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”
I’m voting for Biden though, and I’ll keep voting as progressively as possible in the down ballot elections. If a progressive movement from the bottom up can start by doing things like getting rid of FPTP, we still have a chance. And to anyone thinking about not voting, please do. The president is one person. They are the single most powerful person individually, (taking aside impact on the judicial system) but the collective impact on your day to day life is far more influenced by down ballot positions. Research your down ballot candidates and vote. Many of those races are decided by only a handful of votes. Yours matters.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win.
It’s not in their interests to let a progressive win. Just like their counterpart, the DNC takes a shit ton of bribery donations from corporations lobbyists. Bringing in a progressive who would reform the system or push back against pro-corporate policies is biting the hands that feed them.
They could be rotten from the inside as well, knowing full well how it would go
https://youtu.be/aDfp-QsH51w?t=2018
Sorry, Piped and other frontends isn’t working right now, so you’ll have to use normal YouTube or go through VLC.
The title of this video is “An Anarchistic Watches West Wing” or something similar. I only watched 20mins but it was good so far. It’s a criticism of the American Capitalist system, American Democracy (power of the president, presidential hero worship), etc. via the way it’s portrayed in the West Wing.
Aye. The timestamp I linked specifically talks about something talked about in this thread, which is that the DNC would rather have the far right win than move left.
I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.
And I’d vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.
You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.
“Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one” sounds like one of those fallacies you’d learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I’ve been too scared to ask…)*
A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China’s actions in Tiananmen Square. It’s rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.
Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone’s idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you’re dealing with a tankie.
I’m a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There’s maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it’s actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.
Generally, the actual term for most “tankies” would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it’s a more general, big tent label. It’s used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It’s basically like “woke” where it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.
I am by no means an expert, but the test that was explained to me is that if you look at the famous tianamen square picture of the guy holding grocery bags facing down a line of tanks, and then proceed to side with the line of tanks, then you’re a tankie.
When I say that I am not an expert, what I actually mean is that I’m a random idiot from the internet, so don’t take anything I say as gospel truth.
I’ve only been on lemmy for a few months, and I’ve never heard the term tankie on any other platform. My understanding is that a tankie is a militant supporter of communism, who completely disregards (or is in support of) how every time it’s ever actually been done it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship (or something similarly unpleasant to live under).
My own biases exposed: I am an american, and most of what I know I learned in the absolutely fucked american public education system, which says communism = evil, because of the red scare a while back.
If you do some googling, there’s a wikipedia article on the subject. I’ve forgotten most of the content of that article shortly after I read it, I should look at it again and maybe it will stick this time.
You get it! We can’t fuck over vulnerable people. We can’t abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it – and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.
That’s such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.
People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule…
What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid’s Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2…
And the average man won’t care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs… and if the trains don’t run on time, they probably have libs to blame.
My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can’t be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.
Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I’m probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don’t do that to me, don’t do that to them. I’m begging you for my life.
I am trans and not voting for Biden. I refuse to sacrifice Palestinians for my own safety or the safety of my loved ones. All the stuff people say now about them being an acceptable sacrifice or there being nothing they can do about it, that’s what they’ll be saying about us tomorrow. Solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable strategy for long term survival.
I hate being used as a rhetorical token to make people feel better about selling out another vulnerable group.
Biden is literally arming a genocide. He was even adamant about his continued support for that. Meanwhile Dems led cities have brutally beaten up peaceful colelge protests and invited fascist MAGA mobs to attack minority students there.
The DNC and Biden do not protect minorities. They are white supremacists with just a bit more moderation to the means they employ, but they will absolutely resort to authoritarian crackdowns if they feel the minorities to step out of line by demanding justice and rights.
We can’t fuck over vulnerable people.
That’s what you’re doing when voting for Dems.
Yes, I see how you’re protecting me when you elect the party that would arrest me for being a “Public Danger” because of the fact that I’m trans.
The Prolitariat must be protected
By consenting to corruption and a path to WWIII. That is not protecting them, in fact it is ensuring them a terrible future. If you cared about them, you would vote, volunteer, donate, and support the PSL, CPUSA, or Green party instead.
Lmao the green party isn’t going to do jack shit. They’re completely unserious about politics. They aren’t even trying to build up an infrastructure in all 50 states that lets them get suffused into local and state politics. They aren’t even aiming for Congressional seats, which would be necessary for an actual Green president to get anything done.
They’re just anti science grifters who think wifi causes cancer, entertain vaccine skepticism, and demonize nuclear energy – the latter of which could be a major asset to stopping global warming. Newer designs are even able to consume nuclear waste, meaning an anti nuclear position results in more waste than we would otherwise.
Then support the PSL. I work with the Green party to improve it, because that’s how democracy works. It’s okay you don’t understand that.
None of those parties have a ghost of a chance of winning, and with as razor thin as the win margins were in 2016 and 2020, I’m not confident Biden will win if we don’t vote for him. I sincerely hope I do not have to explain why Trump would be worse on literally every issue (especially Gaza) than Biden is.
Then do something about it instead of complain. I am, what are you doing? You vote for corruption.
I’d vote for ToS era Pike over Trump. I’d vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump. I’d vote to not have a president for 4 years before I’d vote for Trump.
It’s crazy that Trump can get convicted of fraud, be found liable for sexual assault, promise to abuse presidential power to get revenge against those who cross him, actively undermine both national and global security, promise to round up millions and put them into camps, attempt to overthrow the election and refuse to not try it again, and so on, and his side is still so loyal they’ll wear solidarity diapers for him.
I’m so down for ouija board prez.
Ouija board prez ‘channeling’ FDR: T-A-X-T-H-E-R-I-C-H-Goodbye
I’d vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump.
Give it a few months
I’d vote to not have a president for 4 years before I’d vote for Trump.
And now I’m curious how many things depend on having a president at all, and what his role is, by design, in the US and other countries.
Cabinet and federal appointments are the big thing. That’s why I’ll take Biden over Trump. I’m not just voting for him, I’m voting for the 4000 jobs in energy, health, labor, transportation, etc. to be run by Democrats, liberals, and qualified people.
Trump, and project 2025 plan to fill all those roles with right wing nutjobs who will do anything to please the right. On top of those 4000, they’d expand the presidential appointment power to fire up to 45% of the federal workforce. Meteorologist who said the hurricane won’t hit Alabama? GONE! Doctor who said injecting bleach was a bad idea? FIRED!
I’ll take anyone who won’t put Project 2025 in motion.
Didn’t we have a ouija board as a president back when Nancy’s psychic was running the show?
Might be a cool (edit: or probably cringy, given current democrats) meme campaign, listing all the things that are better than Trump one by one. You could have a new one every day until the election day easily.
I’m voting Brandon but let’s not pretend he didn’t shit the bed. It was fucking awful. Brandon should fuck off, but I’d vote for a corpse over any republican, and that will probably be true for the rest of my life.
It’s funny how the standard by which we judge Biden is so high, and the standard for Trump is so low. Like… “oh wow, orange man form complete sentence, he’s really killin it” vs “omg Biden stumbled over his words and had one bad night, his candidacy is over”.
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
Fuck trump and the GOP for the rest of time but Joe looks like shit dude, and he has for a while. Don’t fucking gaslight me.
There’s so much Democratic gaslighting going on now it’s ridiculous. They need to stop fucking around, put the hammer down and just run Newsom. What do the egotists like RBG and Biden think their legacy is going to be? Step out gracefully and let someone else take the reins jfc. Otherwise the legacy you leave is that you have fucked us all.
That’s fine. He surrounds himself with capable people (The other guy’s are all heading to prison and were always the most incompetent for their positions). His party is just as corpo as the other, but they will not enact Project 2025 and still have a chance at change for the better (the other party does not). One party might maintain the crappy status quo, the other will absolutely entrench and yank the country further in the wrong direction irreversibly against the will of the majority.
I’ve been flip flopping on this over the last 48 hours.
I can’t dispute that Joe doesn’t seem fit for another presidency.
That said, it sounds like it’s really up to Biden and the First Lady to decide to withdraw before anything will happen.
In the mean time, this discussion isn’t helping progressive voters. Trump will preside over an irreversible lurch to the right. Progressives need to unite behind a candidate - anyone the faintest pulse will do.
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
You have completely bought into the long GOP build up of a fundamental lie. Congrats I guess.
Edit: The thing that makes the false GOP narrative of Biden being senile and incapable SO effective is that it taps into your own prejudices. None of us really want a senior citizen as president and many younger folks believe older people to be incapable of anything more than watching TV and playing bingo. This is easily disproven but the prejudice remains. So when his horrible debate performance confirms your bias, well… of course you run with it and ignore all other evidence. Never mind that the very next day he did a great and highly energetic campaign rally… never mind that 99% of the time Biden has been on point, articulate and rarely fucked up more than could be explained by a life-long speech impediment. Nope, you all want to believe so much that old people have no business as president (a point with which I agree) that the standard by which you judge them is not a standard you would ever apply to yourself.
You are being played my friends.
The issue here is that Biden has to compete for the morons in the middle who somehow can’t decide between an obvious traitor and a mediocre democrat. So he simply must perform better. The standard is truly higher for him because it takes a lot to sway the mentally defective undecideds.
There’s not really any swing voters who are undecided. There is a massive group that is voting for Trump, and a lot of people who would rather stay home on election day. And all year it has been “Biden needs to win” but now even the DNC is horrified that he is totally unappealing. He belongs in a hospice unit, not the White House. Biden has been like this since the 2020 primaries, just now everyone has to see how old Biden really is.
That is not all where the discussion is right now. The discussion is whether Biden is the best person we have. We still can put someone else forth and now it’s the time to do it.
One bad night? You’re joking, right? Or have you convinced yourselves this inane rambling isn’t a real, long term issue?
Or have you convinced yourselves this inane rambling isn’t a real, long term issue?
Inane rambling? You are talking about Trump, right?
Technically I’m voting for Biden, in reality I’m voting against Trump. I really wish I had a better option…
Outside of voting, you have options. I’m not American, but I’d advise any communists to vote Biden simply because the repression under Trump could get really ugly, hindering any proper organisation. Just view it as what I think it also actually is: A cynical, pragmatic move to save you and other working people from more open repression, nothing more.
But before and after voting: Put your energy into unions like the IWW, into neighbourhood organisations for mutual aid, into community defense like the SRA or Redneck Revolt, into antifascist organisation, into refining your own position and presenting it to others. Create networks and connections. All preventing Trump is doing is buying time for now to do exactly that. Things will only get worse in the decades ahead, with no end in sight for the climate catastrophe and further decay of capitalism - and laying the groundwork of actually being able to do something is critically important right now, in my opinion.
Of course everyone is in the end their own master when it comes to decisions like this. Just - remember that by not voting in this specific election you also aren’t changing anything. And while I fully understand the desire to organise for a third party, they have been marginalised effectively, at least I personally don’t think electoral politics will bring any relevant changes, one way or the other. They are just about who carries the whip used against you, and in this case if the are openly and harshly, or covertly and less efficiently using it.
That all being said - I think a few people here overestimate the amount of tankies and communists that won’t vote Biden. The group is marginal in the big scheme of things. If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters. Personally, I’d blame the corporate core of the Democratic party and middle class liberals for being out of touch with reality.
If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters
Nah, they’ll blame us the same way they blame us for losing the 2016 general election. We are simultaneously too small to matter but able to turn the tide of the largest election in the United States.
I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
For me there’s no better time to start building a new American political formation. If the democrats wise up and snap left when they see the third party/lack of turnout then that’s fine too.
This vote is far too important to protest vote. Especially now that I live in a swing state.
Voting for what you actually want to happen is literally the only way to communicate your needs to political parties that they actually listen to.
There are people whose whole education and job is just to know how many people in a given district that the party can pick up by adopting aspects of a particular platform.
Tell them! Tell them that you won’t vote for them unless they take up the antiwar, Medicare for all torch! Tell them that they can’t get your district without a housing guarantee and free school lunch! Tell them to stop the genocide in the only way they listen to!
It’s not a protest to use your vote.
The left got so close to taking the DNC in 2016 they had to go to court to affirm their right to tell the left to eat a dick regardless of voters or donations, and now they’re pushing legislation to strip the red tape from taking away nonprofit status from leftist orgs. Dems are running scared and it has their faschie flag flying high (see op disinformation campaign claiming anyone who dislikes biden is a ‘tankie’)
Of course, even though they’ve spent more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans they’ll be happy to place the singular blame on us then march further right so they can shocked pikachu when the left doesn’t vote for them then either.
So, take this point of view as what it is: a view on the situation from an outsider, I am not American, I am a German communist. While I do probably look more closely at American politics than most likely the average American simply from being interested in politics to a pathological degree, I might not have the full picture of an American who is also as interested in politics.
I think in this particular moment, as much as the Democrats do their best to antagonise you, as much as you are correct that someone like Biden will continue with the same status quo bullshit that created the situation to begin with, as much as he won’t be helping the people suffering from (neo)-colonialism in a meaningful way overseas - I don’t think that this particular election is the time to vote third party. The chance may come, and best then to do it not as individuals based on your personal conscience, but as an organised group, with concrete messaging communicated. And even in other elections and outside this vote, organising for a third party - while I personally don’t have a lot of hope for electoral politics - is certainly better than investing energy into the Democratic party, whose supporters seem to have no problems spewing hatred towards you for not agreeing with their party line and view of reality.
But I think underestimating Trump could be genuinely dangerous. Not because he will “ruin America” or anything like that. Simply, because he will be in a position to dial up repression, potentially leaving you with a situation in 2-4 years, where the party you voted for has to move underground, either having gotten outlawed or further marginalised and infiltrated. The situation looks critical enough to me, that under a Trump presidency, unions and leftist orgs will face open persecution much more than under someone like Biden - who is admittedly bad enough. Persecution up to outright criminalising them, to encouraging right-wing militias to kill their members with a slap on the wrist as a consequence or no legal repercussions at all. Yes, I do think that is unfortinately a realisitic possibility. And at this point, I don’t think leftist orgs in the US have the resilience yet to efficiently organise in the underground.
That being said, I won’t tell you a vitriolic “you will be at fault” if you choose to vote and organise as you want to. I do also see advantages, like getting visibility for your issues and potentially by reaching certain threshholds getting public funding support and the likes (that exists in the US too, right?). But I’d still advise it in this election - as shitty and cynical as it is - to vote for the old fart that doesn’t swing the whip of the state as hard on your back as the one that might outright strangle you with it. Getting a proper communist, grassroots organisation running in the United States is important for the whole world, and I fear it will be impossible, or at least much, much harder under Trump (mostly, again, because there are no proper structures in place to move into illegality and organising underground, from everything I can tell.)
How does de la Cruz intend to stop arms shipments without any congressional representation to push legislation to do so?
If Congress says money must be spent on sending Israel weapons, then the president has to follow that in some capacity. The president could try to stop shipments, but that would result in a swift court case, and the president would be compelled to continue sending weapons. The executive branch has discretion in how to do so, but it unfortunately does not have the authority to end it.
You need Congress if you’re going to stop all shipments. Alternatively I suppose you could try to have the judiciary in your favor, but that means de la Cruz now needs the Supreme Court on her side.
It’s a complete misconception in American society and politics that the president can do anything. They’re certainly the most powerful single individual, but Congress is still much stronger.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation would be much better served trying to win Congressional races so they can push for bills to end weapon shipments. If they could take a number of strong Republican districts with their message, it would give them a lot more influence.
lets say youre right, and the president can’t do anything to stop arms shipments. simply forcing the (it wouldn’t be swift, the supreme court works on a set schedule) case would be better than rubberstamping the appropriations of our genocidal congress.
simply forcing the supreme court to rule would be powerful!
make them put their names on their genocide! even if the executive fails wouldn’t it be better to actually try everything to stop the genocide than to simply say “nothing i could do!”?
of course, if the executive branch were so weak there’d be no reason to fear project 2025, but i’ll leave that alone.
but there are tons of ways to hamstring aid, usually it’s not explicitly listed what aid will be sent in a bill, that’s left up to the executive. in that case de la cruz could send nonlethal military supplies like food, medical and replacement parts.
in the case that aid is specified, it can be slow walked as part of a peace deal, it can be deactivated or simply sent during adverse conditions that will ensure it never arrives.
psl has been running in state, local and congressional elections since 2008.
its astounding to me how many people reply to posts like this saying “you can’t win, so dont try!” or “its going to be hard and people will oppose you, so give up!”.
