I think the main issue is NPC quests, they are complete nonsense and fail automatically based on arbitrary triggers.
Agreed. I don’t mind non-intuitive quest steps, but completely missable items, abilities and other content is inexcusable. That’s why we have to look up wikis…
The questlines are so intuitive that some were missing an ending for a few months due to bugs and nobody noticed.
Most players use guides to play that game?
Is that common these days?
It doesn’t seem very fun.
FromSoft sort of brought it upon themselves with their design philosophy to be fair, going back at least as far as Dark Souls. Selling a DLC and having it locked behind a convoluted puzzle you wouldn’t figure out without a guide was certainly a choice, for example.
Case in point: I played dark souls for 30 minutes and then gave up.
Did not seem worth it.
I like the idea of Soulslikes. I want to like playing them (some of them, I do: Hellpoint, The Surge, the Jedi games). But I can’t bring myself to slog through it just to say I did. It’s not fun or worth it to me.
I did the same when it first came out, gave it another try during covid when the remastered version came out, absolutely loved it. Got all achievements even :P
But that’s literally the point of these games compared to everything else that’s out there.
Where else do I get cryptic puzzles and unforgiving exploration without a map full of markers?
But that’s literally the point of these games compared to everything else that’s out there.
I don’t think that’s entirely true. There are lots of people who play them mostly for the challenge of learning and beating the (mostly) well designed bosses.
Where else do I get cryptic puzzles and unforgiving exploration without a map full of markers?
Outer Wilds? Subnautica?
Tangentially related, I played over 30 hours of Elden Ring before learning there were Map Fragments. The first one I found was way up north. I just assumed the world map was supposed to be dogshit.
I wasn’t happy for having gotten through without them, I was honestly just kinda pissed that they didn’t do some minimal nudging towards the first one.
It is very fun if you want to be sure that you aren’t missing anything the game has to offer. You never know when a game may put something very obscure in a very limited timeframe.
In the case of elden ring or from software games in general NPC’s are usually so cryptic that solving the puzzles/quests would take you a lot of trial and error which isnt very fun for me.
It is very fun if you want to be sure that you aren’t missing anything the game has to offer.
You’ve hit upon the crux of the issue, in my opinion. FromSoftware games in general are built on exploration and discovery, finding crazy cool stuff in some dark corner of the game is a big part of the experience. However, for discovery to be properly rewarding you have to allow for the possibility that the player will just miss the stuff you’ve hidden. Indeed, in a blind playthrough of Dark Souls you’re likely to stumble upon a bunch of different secrets and still miss 50% or more of them.
That’s gonna be excruciating if you insist on “100% completing” the game. It kind of goes back to older days of gaming when there was no internet and no guides, and you just played the game and were happy when you saw the credits, and had no idea you even missed anything. I feel like modern games with their map markers for everything and completion percentages visible have kind of changed the way many people approach games.
Not to say there’s anything wrong with using a guide, play the game how you like. And there is definitely an argument that if you bought the whole game, you’d like to experience the whole game.
I’d love a Morrowind type journal to log some of that, totally get I can write things down outside the game, I’d just like to have that option in game especially as I can tend to jump around games and put them down for some time. They’re almost there with the player map markers and NPC markers, even just having the ability to make notes in game would be big for me.
Its still kind of outside the game but steam has an in-built notes tool in the game overlay. I’d argue its still closer to being an ingame tool as it stores the notes per game. I don’t really use the tool much but I wouldn’t be surprised if it also works with non-steam games that you may have acquired through alternative means.
I’d rather just play something else than use a guide. That’s one step away from just watching a play through on YouTube.
I usually try myself and if I can’t progress a quest, I carefully read the wiki to the point on where I’m currently stuck. I never do that for bosses unless it’s a gimmick fight. Like anybody remember that giant, you could ONLY beat by picking up a sword, on a corpse, behind a pile of stuff, in the very same boss battle arena and then quickly equip it mid fight? Something like this sounds neat on paper, but plays horrible if you have people not knowing this fine detail.
There are some things you just can’t do without a guide/wiki. For example the achievements of “collect every weapon/ring”.
Also, the NPC quests are just undoable. There are basically no hints as to how to do them, and there are many ways to permanently lose the quest. Doing correctly a NPC quest going blind as an average player consists of plain luck.
I think most people have used guides, but I wonder how much guide people use. Take me for instance, I play blind as much as possible, but I look up a guide to see if there are any weapons that I can miss in a playthrough.
A few comments have mentioned they play blind as much as possible. How much is it possible to play the game blind?
Is it after 20% of the game you have to use a guide no matter what?
Think of it less as “at the 20% mark you’ll need a guide” and more “you’ll probably only FIND 20% of the game your first playthrough without a guide” - you’ll find the critical path, you’ll beat the game, but without a TON of tenacity, you won’t complete a lot of the side quests, and probably won’t even find some. You probably won’t really have a grasp on what conditions you need to get an ending you like, etc.
All of it CAN be found, can be done, without a guide, and you’ll probably have a blast doing it, it’s just a matter of the time and commitment you want to/are able to put in.
It isn’t. Having to look up everything about a game to know how to play doesn’t make a fun game. I quit games with convoluted solutions. I’m not a Dark Souls player for that reason.
It’s really not that difficult to go through these games with minimal guide use. If you’re looking to 100% them, then yes, a guide is essential to use. And you always have summoning in boss battles, and ER added npc summons too. Once you just embrace the games with an open mind , they become more enjoyable.
I do like the paper instruction booklets that more complicated games used to come with, but that was introducing game elements so that you could use them in the game.
It seems like dark souls games require you to literally follow step by step what another person did or you can’t even play the game.
Is there any lore to those games? Maybe I’ll just treat them like a novel if the lore is good?
But I never heard anyone saying oh the story is so good for elden ring. All I hear is gosh Melania or bull-man is so difficult it took me 68 tries following this guide until I got to their second form.
Because tons of people play those games right? Why are they playing a game that requires so little creative input from the player?
Think of guides in FS games more like MapQuest directions. It’ll tell you to take a left at a certain exit, but not all of the traffic between here and there. You gotta navigate that bit on your own, just here’s a sign post to follow.
As far as lore goes, that’s one of the most compelling things about the games. They’re absolutely oozing more from every possible orifice. The worlds are so dense and thematic, and the lore isn’t spoon fed with excessive cutscenes and talking, it’s largely given to you environmentally. Placement of items and enemies, item descriptions that feel like they’re telling you bits of legend. Stuff like that.
It seems like dark souls games require you to literally follow step by step what another person did or you can’t even play the game.
This is not true at all.
Because tons of people play those games right? Why are they playing a game that requires so little creative input from the player?
The execution of the gameplay is very fun. It is extremely satisfying to defeat many of the bosses.
Exploration can be fun, though using a guide minimizes this.
I typically play the FromSoft games without a guide the first time through, then look up what I missed for subsequent playthroughs.
You don’t really need to follow a “build” guide because it’s not really that kind of game. There are a lot of weapons to choose from, and some choices in rings, but it’s not like Path of Exile where you have a ton of interconnected, semi permanent changes.
I feel like dark souls games are the only time I ever hear about build guides, what kind of games require build guides if not the dark souls ones?
Man, I guess I should just try playing elden ring already haha.
I mean, a lot of the “build guides” online are just trash from youtubers and whatnot trying to get clicks. You don’t need to follow a complicated youtube video to get “Raise HP and Stamina, get a big spear, get a big shield, stab baddies.”
Do you know Path of Exile? Go look at how that game works. You really want to follow a guide there or you’re likely going to find halfway through that your character is too weak, and you’re too poor to reset it. Other games that are close relatives to Diablo2 often feel like they need build guides. They often have mutually exclusive build choices and a lower player-skill factor.
Eh, if you want specific endings you need a guide or you can spend hundreds of hours finding and talking to each npc after each boss fight. I don’t have that kind of time and I don’t like getting locked out of things because I only talked to the creepy dead looking guy five times instead of six.
But the game itself is still worth it despite not being able to play it without someone telling you how to play it the entire game?
There’s so many good games that are fun to explore and progress through, why stick with one that you can’t even play unless you follow instructions minute by minute?
I know this game was popular, so there must be some reason.
It’s not about REQUIRING a guide to do anything, it’s that if you’re trying to do one specific thing, or have a bit of assistance navigating exactly where you’re supposed to go next, they’re indispensable.
I definitely could have played elden ring without a guide. Problem is, the world is HUGE, and there are many endings with specific requirements. I don’t have hundreds of hours to pour into one game, even one I’m quite enjoying. I also want to see more of the plot, and that tends to require seeing multiple endings or other specific, exclusive, quest lines. All of which is just more approachable with a guide.
Some of the fun in from soft games comes from the exploration, but a lot of it is mechanically focused. Git gud. That, and being steeped in a fascinating, dark world, tend to be what keep me coming back. A guide helps keep me from feeling too frustrated just wondering where I should go.
Quest guides like what Belgdore is talking about just tell you who to fight/talk to if you want to finish certain quests or get certain endings. It doesn’t tell you how to fight your battles and usually doesn’t even cover how to get there (unless its especially arcane – looking at you Millicent).
Further, the best part of these kinds of games (at least IMO) is the adventure itself. Working through a zone to a boss and then learning how to overcome the boss is the fun part. It’s the part of the game that makes you hone your skill as a player and “git gud”. Quest guides… stat build guides… pretty much anything short of a zone walkthrough or boss mechanic overview won’t help you with that.
I can get it for one or two really hard puzzles in a game, but elden ring at least had no need for a guide at all
So you’re only the second commenter here who said you don’t need a guide for elden ring, and definitely the only one that says there’s " no need for a guide at all".
Do you mean to get to the next boss you don’t need a guide but you still need a guide to fight the next boss?
Did you play elden ring without a guide?
Not the guy you replied to. I think I’ve looked up guides or tips for bosses like… 3 times in all of the from soft games. Bosses are largely puzzles to be figured out. They’re some of the most engaging moments of gameplay, and, barring gimmick bosses, reading a guide for them still doesn’t do the work of beating it for you anyway. They’ll just give you some things to look for and some general advice, then the rest is on you.
Usually just to figure out a build that lets them explore without getting completely merked
Yeah yeah git gud and whatever but some folks just want to see the cool story without having to become a dodge rolling master.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you use a guide first to build a super strong character?
That still doesn’t seem like a very fun game mechanic.
Is that what people mean when they say it’s a souls-like game? A game you can’t play unless you follow a guide?
Or is it more like just fight a boss than another boss and another boss in increasing difficulty?
Because I played another crabs treasure, but eventually had to lower the difficulty and then quit because at that point I’m just doing stupid fetch quests to fight bosses that I literally have to fight dozens of times just so I can make sure to dodge .7 seconds after they raise one of their legs two dozen times?
Looking at you, samurai sushi crab.
That got pretty boring.
Not even that, most souls games will have at least a couple of decently accessible items that will help you turn down the early game pressure if you want to make progress without having to do the whole git gud routine for every next corner in the road with a stone troll sitting on it.
I’m not a fan of guides, i think i would rather watch someone play the game. But to find specific things in elden ring, you either play the game 20 times and find it or you just don’t. The thing that i really don’t understand is guides on youtube that are: how to get overpowered soon in eldenring. And things like that. That’s just godmode or similar cheats, but with extra steps. Why not just download some mods with the stuff you want or whatever, because you’re still not really beating the game, you follow someone’s instruction to play “his game.”
This is absolutely my biggest complaint with Elden ring. You either use a guide or play the game 100 times trying to figure everything out. There are times where the dude literally tells you he’s going to be in a specific area and then he literally isn’t anywhere close to where he says he’s gonna be. It’s my first souls game and it was pretty frustrating for me.
I try to always play games blind but some things in elden ring i hardly understood with a guide. Or you get locked out easily out of quests. I was talking to an npc for a quest and accidentally hit attack and killed him. I was walking past that talking bush like 100 times and had no idea what’s even going on. I thought it’s a glitch, invisible npc or something. Even after looking it up i couldn’t find it. He’s still there in his bush. Or not, i don’t even know. I found out some hard puzzles accidentally. But at the end of the day as long as i get through the game i’m happy. I’m no completionist.
I dunno. I kind of like it. It means for your first playthrough. You will get a very unique experience, different from your friends. You found different things.
Then again. Who in their right mind understands you can use a prattling pate to tell bock “you’re beautiful”? That’s just insane. Or maybe I’m just not smart enough.
This is just how fromsoft does things. Pretty weird but having played every souls game to completion and several of their other games just a bit, I feel like you get used to it. The only thing that bothered me about elden ring is that it just didn’t seem to outshine previous titles by enough (or at all) to be particularly excited about it.
I feel like its the same thing as how I can try to hop in something entirely new to me like baldurs gate 3 and there is just so much overwhelming shit that I’m not used to (still put in a good chunk of time and not done yet), but as a long time souls player, ER just felt like a new region and some new items and quests in a souls game. Oh and different timings for otherwise familiar mechanics I guess.
Haven’t played Elden Ring, but I hate when games establish some way to play in the tutorial and when you watch some guides they first tell you to ignore what the game taught you.
Star Wars Squadrons was such an offender. Star Craft kind of is because singleplayer balancing is different from multiplayer. Can’t think of more now but I have a feeling like that’s the case with many games.
So, great that Elden Ring wants to tackle that. Ideally a game should teach you the ideal way to play.
Arguably the first Dark Souls is one of these. Most of the classes push you towards shields as the cornerstone of defense. The studio felt like this overemphasis on shields was such a mistake they took 2 whole games (Bloodborne and Sekiro) in an almost entirely shield-free direction to teach players there were other ways.
Pyromancy (and magic in general) were also undervalued in DS1 initially due to how the game presents them. People eventually figured out that Pyro is so OP you don’t even need to use leveling with it to have an easy time.
Arguably the first Dark Souls is one of these. Most of the classes push you towards shields as the cornerstone of defense. The studio felt like this overemphasis on shields was such a mistake they took 2 whole games (Bloodborne and Sekiro) in an almost entirely shield-free direction to teach players there were other ways.
That’s more the studio changing design philosophy rather than the game giving poor hints, I would argue. Shields are very viable through all of DS1.
Elden Ring’s tutorial consists of a single little cave that merely tells you all the basics of the game (how to move, your basic attack buttons, dodging, blocking, parrying, backstabs, sneaking, posture breaking and guard breaks) and then gives you an emote to perform as if to say “have fun” on your way out. The best part, to me coming from previous From games, is that you can skip it. It’s just off to the right from where you start the game proper and if you don’t want that emote, you can just go off to play the game. All the other games have a forced tutorial section (you can still sprint through it though).
The game is amazing. It was easily GOTY for me when I got it and I dumped around 300 hours into it. That said, there are a lot of players out there that really deserve to enjoy it, but it’s insanely tough and not ideal for some people, especially if you’re someone that plays mostly for the story. So I appreciate that the ER devs are thinking about this to some degree.
I feel like aside from full-on accessibility settings for those who need them (which absolutely should be implemented and the FromSoft devs don’t get a pass on this), they could do something as simple as a 2% speed, health, & damage nerf to all their enemies and it could be enough for most newcomers that have paid for the game, but didn’t get anything out of it. Like me. There are probably a huge amount of people that bought the game because of glowing “this is GOTY” reviews and couldn’t get past even Margit.
There’s old guys like me too that don’t have the reflexes the younger gens do lmao. I had to get help from other players on a few occasions.
One of the worst arguments I had online was about “what is accessibility? How does it fit into multiplayer?”
Is increasing the parry window accessibility? Should you be able to change yours in a competitive match?
Is changing health levels an accessibility option? Should you be able to change that in multiplayer?
My opposite number said they should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and if that means spoiling the game for an invader or cooperator well that’s their problem.
I’m sure most people have a more nuanced take.
Definitely the weakest link in the fromsoft chain for me.
The open world is a downgrade and just spreads out the interesting parts instead of enhancing the exploration. Lots of padding with repeated bosses and dungeons as well.
Quality over quantity please.
Don’t blame them after the obscure parts of Dark Souls in the console era where people had no idea how to catch a ride with the Giant Crow back to the undead asylum, and trade items via Snuggly at the bird’s nest. Just one of many examples.
