I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don’t pocket mulch?!
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean…
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
That’s not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
I was going to stop torturing animals, but some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I’m going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.
Edit: as in, what sustains it is the actual moral implications of a non-vegan lifestyle. I was convinced to go vegan by internet comments like this.
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Isn’t this something that the fediverse was explicitly designed to support?
We’re making fun of them for making use of one of the foundational features of the platform?
If they don’t like it there, they can move again. And again. Or host their own instance.
Idk what this creepy vicarious butthurt is about, or why it has become so popular.
Yeah, but it’s a pretty pathetic passtime. At least find a good reason, rather than doing literally the thing you want them to do.
Like, insulting them for leaving is just as bad as them crying that their toxic behavior scares people away. It makes no sense.
I mean this kind of a perfect example of doing the thing where you blow shit up over an extremely pedantic issue which is at best tangentially related to the core ethic, specifically because you view nuance itself as a threat. As far as purity tests dissolving into self parody, I’m not sure there’s a better example for veganism.
And I say this as a person who otherwise sympathizes with vegans, but often finds them insufferable. Self awareness is the vaccine to self parody.
Yes, this is a feature of the fediverse, and we’re celebrating it here.
When shitty toxic communities create issues for the wider Lemmyverse, instance admins can lay down some ultimatums.
On the toxic community’s instance, the instance’s admins can demand that the toxic community correct their behavior, or the community and its offending users will get banned.
On other instances, offending communities can be blocked, and if users are regularly misbehaving, instance admins can pressure each other to enforce basic community conduct, or face defederation.
Once a community is given an ultimatum, they can either change their behavior to meet the expectations of the wider Lemmyverse, or they can find an instance that will allow their behavior.
If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated. They have to exist within that narrow network of fringe instances now, giving them significantly less reach to harass or spread disinfo or whatever got them booted from the last place they called home.
And us users play a central role here. When we see communities doing harm, whether they are endorsing fascism, or pedophilia, or animal abuse, we need to stay “not here you don’t” and demand that action be taken.
When those communities end up migrating to some fringe instance full of dipshits, we need to applaud the mods and admins that sent them there, and let them know that their hard work was appreciated.
Federation works. Every fringe community in exile is proof of that. This is all one big community effort, so we can’t stay silent about what’s happening and expect that it all gets taken care of behind the scenes.
If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated.
In theory this is how it should work, but in practice the toxic people tend to move to general purpose more laissez-faire places like .world or .ml, which makes de-federating and cutting off 30% of all users a difficult decision for anyone trying to have a community.
The answer is less centralization, but that can’t be forced. beehaw.org (for example) made the decision to cut off .world and they are better for it. But they are a large-ish instance in their own right.
So if you dont agree with someone they are an extremist, got it.
You are aware vegan cats exist right? Like its already a thing, and its being studied.
Y’all are so confidently wrong about stuff its crazy, and then y’all pat yourselves in the back for all grouping up and agreeing together.
Just because a lot of people are on one side of a position does not make it the right position, you must be aware there is more to think about right?
One study estimated 1% of cat owners feed their cat a vegan diet. Why do you think that might be? Are they all extremist animal abusers? Or is it possible you had an assumption that turned out to be wrong and now don’t know how to reconcile?
Sure you can ally yourself with the CCP and that might be totally legal (if they collect any personal data and send it overseas to China then that would be breaking the law but it’s unlikely) but that doesn’t mean it isn’t frowned upon.
That’s a stretch, but even assuming it’s true, why do you care enough about their community to frown upon it?
I have opinions on a lot of things that don’t effect me at all. Palestinian genocide, Uighurs in sweatshops, child labor laws in other states, homeless people being harassed, the socioeconomic shift of Hong Kong losing independent legal rights.
I can respect their freedom to ally themselves to people who wish them direct harm, but I also have the freedom to express my disappointment in them.
Yes and no. The theory is that each instance is supposed to be more specialized, kind of like the old BBS that used to be rampant on the internet. If you are moving to an instance just because people disagree with you instead to have more discussion over a specific topic that is not really in line with the purpose of the fediverse.
It’s just disguised metadrama. They joined the instances this instance doesn’t like.
And so they’re moving, and somehow y’all are… Upset about it??? Make it make sense
I don’t see anyone upset about it.
Making fun of them, yes. But not upset.
I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That’s pretty egregious.
Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don’t just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn’t very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn’t own a cat.
That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they’re unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn’t, but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
Finally, I’m also not a fan of dead cats, but if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies
Yeah, that’s not how it works. Especially in countries with extreme regulatory capture like the US.
Unless a product has text that says in a very specifically worded way that it’s been tested and approved by a relevant regulatory body, it hasn’t.
The fact that something hasn’t been taken off the market YET does not necessarily mean that it’s been approved. Especially not when you’re dealing with politically volatile stuff that could lead to lengthy public lawsuits sapping the resources of the already chronically underfunded and understaffed agencies.
If it’s vegan food for obligate carnivores, it MIGHT technically be “safe” (as in won’t be outright lethal), but for the reasons you yourself mentioned, it’s likely to significantly decrease the animal’s enjoyment of life at best and more likely to be downright torturous.
It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking
Except for the fact that those accounts would be absolutely right and have reams of scientific evidence from the world’s foremost experts in related fields to back up their claims. Unlike the people abusing cats in the name of not abusing animals.
it probably isn’t
It is. It’s not even anywhere near the next city over from the neighborhood of close.
but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that
Except limiting the spread of dangerous misinformation, such as common myths that are keeping smokers away from one of if not THE most effective smoking cessation tool, is a big part of what admins are FOR.
if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway
Yeah…that’s not a valid argument either. A lot of vegans avoid getting a cat because they’re too overzealous in their veganism to even want carnivorous animals to eat meat.
The Venn diagram of people vegan enough to love carnivores but refuse to give them meat and people who would trust a vegan online echo chamber more than competent veterinarians is a circle within a bigger circle.
I feel like nobody is approaching this from a consent aspect either. If someone offers their cat an array of cat food options and makes an actual honest attempt to determine a long term preference and the cat legitimately prefers the vegan cat food, then that’s way less problematic than saying “you will eat this weird food or you will starve.”
The forced veganism thing just feels a lot like saying “studies show that a human can technically survive on roaches and rat feces as long as they get a vitamin C supplement.”
I just wanted to add: the reason why most carnivores go for the digestive tract first when eating their prey is that they eat the predigested plant matter with the entrails, making those nutrients much more readily available to them.
It’s a shame; i’m sure there are vegans feeding their cats this way, and when those animals lose muscle mass quickly, the first thing that gets really damaged by that are their kidneys - and this does normally only get noticed shortly before the cat is going to die. And it’s an ugly death. I’ve had a young cat which had nearly dead kidneys when we got her, and it’s pure torture for them - we tried everything we could, but there’s not much to be done after they show symptoms. That one “study” that other poster is throwing around with the owner-reported feedback regarding the health of their cats has actual negative worth.
What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don’t worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
Bruh. This is why I don’t like folks from vegan communities. So full of misinformation and vitriol regarding farming practices. Dead, malnourished and diseased cattle are worthless to a farmer, so they intentionally don’t keep them in conditions like these crazies describe.
That said I am trying to cut down on my meat consumption because meat production is more climate intensive than vegetables, and my diet is not as vegetable-heavy as it should be. But you folks make it so hard to feel good about making positive changes like that
What is your intent when replying like this? Did you intend to have a conversation and a sharing of views? Is it just about mocking the hypocrisy what you assume my views to be?
If thats true then everyone should probably start leaving .world. If they cant even behave themselves with something as simple as veganism, then you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
Maybe, but this seems like a problem that’s bigger than a single instance. A few months back someone came with some pretty good receipts showing .ml admins going after people for having some very fair and moderate criticisms of China. Seems like most instances either have power tripping mods or are too small to have much activity.
The issues with dot ml and dot world are hardly comparable. I’ve had my concerns with some of the world admin actions (flip-flopping, lack of communication) but I do believe they are trying in good faith. I’m still happy to be registered and to make my communities elsewhere but for now I don’t see them as being nearly as egregious as ml.
you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
I mean they “preemptively defederated hexbear as a last resort” for fear they might discuss politics, so that ship has sailed.
- Adding animal abuse to their TOS was a good move. I’m surprised it wasn’t already there.
- Encouraging people to feed a cat a vegan diet is a call to abuse a cat through deliberate malnourishment.
- Mods on c/vegan were directly calling for animal abuse, and censoring anyone countering them.
I stand with the admins on this. Zero sympathy for animal abusers.
leaving .world is a pretty fair response
Okay, .world account…
- Agreed, except when it’s being done to retroactively justify your actions.
- I think it’s a very bad idea to feed a cat a Vegan diet, but there are vegan products being sold on the market, and if you want to feed your cat one of these products, you should discuss them with a vet or other qualified professional. Regular dry food contains way more carbohydrates than cats are meant to have in their diet, which can lead to obesity and diabetes in cats. Are people who feed their cats dry food animal abusers? Should the Lemmy admins start policing the use of dry food?
- The mods of c/vegan were trying to assert their ability to moderate their own sub as they saw fit in the face of a massive overreach from the admin. I think they’re the most insufferable community I’ve seen on this instance, but they should have the right to moderate their own community.
And yes, I’m on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I’m certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
So you are cool if we just feed prisoners vitamin fortified gruel since they can technically survive on it?
My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an “All or Nothing” mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.
And veganism, if taken to the “no suffering of sentient beings” full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they’re considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it’s very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have “as far as is practicable”. I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don’t work here in Australia.
your oxford study doesn’t account for anyone who gets free or subsidized meat, or who catches, raises, or hunts their own. so it excludes basically all of the working poor, which is basically everyone.
or who catches, raises, or hunts their own.
How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
Or how does ‘free or subsidized meat’ compare with free or subsidized plant based food?
I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.
No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic “bacon” posts.
Of all the delicious meats to be obsessed about, redditbros went and picked one of the least appealing ones and decided to make it their entire personality 💀
The vast majority of people love bacon and bacon memes and jokes are part of the mainstream culture. Do you accommodate non-vegans? Why do you expect them to accommodate you?
I wish that was true (and I’m not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they’re the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I’m doing the same to them).
I think that you will find that these anti-vegans are reacting to the behaviour of the extremist.
Nah, as a vegan most people act pretty hateful towards us even when we don’t bring up the topic.
Most people only ever hear anything from the extremists so you get painted with the same brush. I have friends who are vegans who are amazing people. I go out of my way to accommodate them. You are getting hate because of a very small group of fanatics who believe that they are absolutely morally superior and that that absolute moral superiority justified doing and saying anything to anyone who doesn’t agree with them in an attempt to shame, harass, and intimidate them into doing what they are told.
They’re easy to hate - They’re weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who cares about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They’re basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
Edit: It’s possible my explanation of why vegans are disliked has touched a nerve. To clarify; I don’t think this, hell I eat vegan meals most of the time, but these are the qualities given to the Strawman Vegan that everyone onlines seems to love to hate. (I also quite like furries.)
The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
Yikes. You know, vegans are targeted by the extremely wealthy & powerful meat & dairy industries who spend untold fortunes making the vegan lifestyle look as unappealing and “crazy” as possible?
I mean, I’m sure you’re galaxy brain is impervious to propaganda and everything, I’m just saying, you’re painting with an awfully broad brush.
I think the cause has been tainted by the rampant propagandizing and demonization across all forms of media that the movement has been subjected to. You’re doing it now, even - what the hell even is an “extremist vegan”?
who cares about chickens
Most people. Anyone who isn’t a psychopath cares to some extent about animals, vegan or non-vegan
I think it’s funny how quickly the outspoken anti-vegan types deliver the “I actually think it’s ok to torture animals” completely unprompted
I hate chickens. They’re loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to abuse them. I take good care of my chickens despite the fact that they’re assholes.
